IBM Mainframe Forum

I've reported a person's post due to that, and other posts, tending to be irratable and grouchy. In the report I asked twice, once with a check box option and another in the message, for a response to the report about how it ended up turning out and how the rule against flaming got interpreted in practice. I have not received a response, hence this topic.

Basically, what I want to find out here is how is the rule actually enforced; is flaming actually allowed in practice until things get out of hand or the angry posting had no justification or redeeming qualities?

If so, could the rules be updated to prevent further confusion?

There is a forum for this, Suggestions & Feedback.

As far as I can see, you have received a lot of advice. What I can't see is you following any of it.

enrico posted a Hello World program for you. Did you get that to work? Dick suggested, at least twice, from memory, that you cut down to a minimum, get it working, then build up rather than being flooded with errors caused by other errors.

The repeated posting of similar problems with no regard to solutions already suggested can be dealt with... how? How do we make you read the replies and attempt some of the resolutions? How do we make you realise you've already had a ton of help? How do we make you set up your environment correctly? How do we make you search for help with your emulator somewhere that knows about it?

Can't you begin to understand our frustration? No one has to answer you, but you've had lots of answers. All you seem to do is get upset about the tone. Sort yourself out, sort your environment out, sort your documentation out, sort your editor out - forget anything else you know about how anything else works and get this working with Hello World. Then add the bits in, a piece at a time. Show some initiative. Perseverence is one thing, stubbornness another.

From what you have shown so far, you are incapable of completing this task. Something has to change (the way you are going about it) or you have to give up.

I'd be inclined to suggest you delete everything you have so far. Take a day-or-so off from it. Then decide whether you want to start again. If you want to start again, do it methodically. Start by reading the documentation. Find out how to set the thing up properly. Then start small, and build. Or just enjoy some new hobby.

Is this better than a flame? Are you going to wake up because of this? Personally, I doubt it.

Okay, I guess I should pay more attention to previous answers.

I already reported my own topic as "incorrect forum."

Okay: from what I can tell this rule is enforced loosely. Is that correct? Additionally, what about updating the rules to prevent confusion from people like me who make lousy posts and then make complaints about flaming with which the rules don't apply in practice?

RISCCISCInstSet wrote:Okay, I guess I should pay more attention to previous answers.

I already reported my own topic as "incorrect forum."

Okay: from what I can tell this rule is enforced loosely. Is that correct? Additionally, what about updating the rules to prevent confusion from people like me who make lousy posts and then make complaints about flaming with which the rules don't apply in practice?

Don't make lousy posts.

We should probably have a set of guidelines "stickied" some. Dr. Sorichetti has, I think, frequently provided a link to an essay on asking good questions written by Eric S. Raymond. To make a few remarks of my own, however:

1. Make a reasonable attempt to post in the correct forum. Don't pose COBOL questions in the PL/I forum.
   
   A certain error rate is acceptable. If you post "I'm having problems with a SQL query embedded in a COBOL program..." in the DB2 forum, and someone replies, "The problem is not with the query per se, but with the host variables...", no one will further flame you for posting in the wrong forum. OTOH, we very well might for posting that in the DFSORT forum.
2. Choose a meaningful title. Do not title a post in the Rexx forum "Rexx problem". We guessed that by virtue of the fact that it's in the Rexx forum.
3. Be literate. Granting that the vast majority of querents are not native English speakers, writing the way that you would in a chat room or in texting to your boy/girlfriend leaves the impression that you're a twelve-year-old with an IQ of 90. In which case we can't help you, so why should we try?
4. Be knowledgeable. Use jargon correctly. Data sets have records, tables have rows. Generation data sets have both generations and versions; know which is which. COMP-3 is a COBOL keyword; packed decimal is common to the entire System 360-to-z/OS universe.
5. Be calm. Don't write, in the title or body of your post, "URGENT!!!" or "I need the answer right away!" We don't hit "Refresh" every thirty seconds, and desperation on your part does not entail an emergency on ours.
6. Show a little initiative. Don't write, "What's a SOC7?" (there is no such thing; it's a S0C7) or demand "Give me all the code for...".
7. Be specific. Don't write "It doesn't work!" We can guess that. As Mr. Leahy says in the sig he uses on our sister board, "Don't tell me how it works, tell me how it fails".
8. Be polite. Spell people's names correctly. Say "Please" and "Thank you". Take thirty seconds from your busy schedule to write, "Such-and-such recommendation was correct; my program works now". Address me as "Akatsukami-sama" (OK, you don't have to do that )
9. When you violate all the above rules, and we kick your virtual ass for doing so, don't whine and don't puff up in anger. You had it coming.

One more item which a recent post has brought to mind: Be responsive. When we ask, "What are the error messages in the job's JES log? or "Show us the trace from that exec", it is not because nothing could give us more pleasure than typing those phrases; it is because we think that the information provided will be useful, if not necessary, in solving the problem.

If providing that information is too humilating for words (because, e.g., the trace showed that your exec had an unmatched quote that made the whole thing one big character string), we acknowledge your right to slink silently away and perform jumonji giri in peace. But don't dare ask more questions about that problem.

Another question - how is this rule:

Treat others positively and with respect. Flaming other members or other forums will lead to a warning, possibly even a ban. Be patient and help others if you can.

Actually enforced?

Treat others positively and with respect.

the behavior is also to be observed by the person asking....
when You post multiple time in multiple topics exactly the same issues ...
bad char in opcode
missing macro
invalid continuation ....
what manuals to look at

and You keep getting the same answers
Your program is badly formatted,
the macro is missing and we cannot do anything about it
check the program sources for proper alignment, look for tabs
and we post multiple times the link to the manuals,
quotes from the web pages to show what You should look for ...

and You stubbornly refuse to acknowledge and follow our suggestions
who is not acting positively and treating other with respect ?

not certainly us.... we have been even too kind to You and Your irresponsible behavior
and my way of answering was even too generous,
given the time spent on researching, testing an trying to explain You things
even installing z390 on my pc to check what was really wrong with Your programs

and You complain... You should review Your <behavior> and not blame us if You did not like the replies You got
and before complaining again please review honestly all Your questions and all the replies You received

Okay, thanks, but I'm not through with this topic. Can you give me an example of the kind of flaming that is unacceptable?

If the above sounded like a stupid question, sorry, I just need to finish with this topic and make sure I have all needed information. I'm trying to find out: what is it I need to watch out for?

this topic is a good example of what might be getting You flamed pretty soon

RISCCISCInstSet wrote:Okay, I guess I should pay more attention to previous answers.

I already reported my own topic as "incorrect forum."

Okay: from what I can tell this rule is enforced loosely. Is that correct? Additionally, what about updating the rules to prevent confusion from people like me who make lousy posts and then make complaints about flaming with which the rules don't apply in practice?


Don't make lousy posts.

You're doing it again. Read through this topic. No-one is here to save you from yourself. Find the "how to ask good questions" thing, or "how not to ask bad questions". Read through what you write. Assume that no-one else knows anything about your situation (an excellent assumption), so you have to explain everything that needs explaining about the problem. Sometimes in doing the work to ask a good question, you'll solve the question for yourself. If you don't get some sort of kick out of that, you're probably in the wrong business.